It's sometimes useful for a writer to think not just about what elements of their writing they need help with (ie plot, character development, etc.), but what type of feedback is most useful for them right now, and what style they find most helpful.

For example, is it helpful to you when another writer asks you questions about your work? Or do you like hearing reactions (ie "This made me think of X, and Y confused me, and Z was really funny!")? Or do you like the "tough love" (give or take the love) approach, telling you directly what to do or what not to do?

And for you, do you get more out of someone reading the whole manuscript and marking up at the line level, or do you respond when your reader points out broad themes and patterns?

Hmm, tough question, Lucy.

I find those who point out certain areas they feel need tweaking or major revision the most helpful in the review sense. As I've been rewriting Destiny's Bond--I'm currently reworking the second half--most everyone who's reviewed has had misgivings on Chapter One, where Nobility, Prince of the Celestials, is introduced. Which isn't good, since he pops up throughout the entire manuscript, and is a kind of main secondary character. Taking into account the negative reactions, I've rewritten that first chapter, and am planning to upload a new draft of Destiny's Bond soon, to garner reactions of the changes. Hopefully the revised Chapter One is better than its predecessor . . .

So, to put it plain, I appreciate reviews that point out spots that need tweaking (E.g. if the reviewer snags on a sentence or paragraph that confuses or trips them up, and suggests how to fix it) And if the reviewer sprinkles in some praise, as in what they liked (Characters, Voice, description, Story, etc.) that'd be the perfect review.

Now, if they loved it and can't think of anything that needs fixing, all the better

Newbie Writer, Amber

This is a great question, love it... because i think the best way to be a great motivator and instructor is to not come across rough and gruff but understanding and helpful.

I do not like the kind of help/feedback that is tied to the Helper's successes. In other words, telling me what's wrong with a paragraph i wrote is one thing... but to then justify your interpretation of it or your critique of it because you've sold 500,000 books and have been doing this since Kennedy was president, that is just not helpful to me. 

It's like Tom Brady taking the worst QB in the NFL under his wing and trying to teach him how to play better while at the same time and in the same breath telling that QB that he's won 4 SuperBowls and telling him that with every single critique he gives.

To be a great teacher and motivator, you have to be a great listener. I don't need the "helper person" to keep reassuring me that they're better than me. This is not a competition. I just need to know where my faults are and what the steps are to correct them in the most honest and constructive way. 

Every writer started out like me. Not having anything. Think back to how it made you feel when people put you down and came across as negative. If you smile while you talk to people and be a mentor that is there to guide people like me through the rough waters so that we come out better people on the other side... THAT is the kind of feedback I respond tremendously to....

I hope this helps... !!

Yes, a tough question.

The feedback I want most is whether the story works. Is it memorable, did you enjoy reading it, did you learn something, would you want to read another I've written? If it doesn't work for you, can you tell me why?

I have an idea what I'm trying to do with each story. My word choice, the sounds of the words, sentence structure, tone, charaterization, description of people and places, all are there to support the idea. I want to know if the story has made an impact. When I fail to get my idea across, is it due to poor execution of one or more of these elements? 

A thoughful review may include comments like, "I thought I knew where you were going but I was wrong, and that is disappointing," or "I saw that ending coming; it was anticlimatic," or "put this aside for six weeks and then read it yourself; you're too close to the story but if you let it alone for a while the disconnects will be obvious even to you." Earned praise is good, but it needs to be constructive. You liked the story? How can I, in your valued opinion, make it better?

The reviewer should be open to my genre. A prominent poster on this forum has written that he doesn't like the kind of things that I write, and he doesn't like the people who write the kind of things that I write. These are good comments. I wish we all had that kind of self-knowledge and were so honestly candid about it. The poster is not going to be in my target audience, and I'm okay with that, and I wouldn't change much of what I'm doing on his recommendation. I know my readers, and their evaluations of my work are more important than those of someone who is disinterested in my entire genre. (Try as I might, I have not been able to get interested in fantasy or science fiction. I don't think I could write a useful review in those genres, and I won't try to confuse a writer with a biased evaluation.)

We're all learners here. Feedback can be helpful.  I'm trying to manage things so my best story is always my next one.

Every view is that of an individual, articulating what works for him/her. There is a level of competence that must be met, but the direction/flavor can vary widely, there are all kinds of readers. The comments that we look for on the first pass will be different from what we might need to hear on a later one. I have taken my reviews to heart, but have followed very little of the specific advice. And yet, a lot has changed.

 .

I’ve made changes on the basis of this thought that I read somewhere: We may not agree with specific recommendations, but we must believe that something needs addressing. My new version, not yet up, will be an approach I am very comfortable with, smart-mouth footnotes and all. I will be looking for comments on clarity. I have some intricate backstabbing.

 .

When I review, I look at the things I hope for in my own work: firstly, readability, flow. I look at logic. I do not buy statements of faux-foundational fact. I need to be convinced with believable characterization and motivation. My suspension of disbelief goes only so far. I do not comment on punctuation or grammar unless it is outrageous. I do comment on lack of grace, on deficiency of style. And when something odd happens to a character and he doesn't wonder, what's up with this?, he reacts physically but not mentally like I or anyone would in real life, you lose me on the spot. I want to hear, in addition to the blow-by-blow, what the actors think of it all. I need them to come fully alive for me.

. 

As Perry said, it boils down to what works for us, us being some segment of the reading public, cult or popular, action or artistry-oriented. I’m aware that this is not terribly helpful, but it’s a very difficult question.

--edited by Mimi Speike on 2/6/2015, 2:26 PM--

The feedback that helps me the most is when the reviewer gives me a nod towards anything that may hang up a reader.  A scene that gets confusing, a possible plot hole, inconsistent details. I want feedback of their impressions, virgin eyes reading my story and telling me what they think of it. What they like, what they don't like.

What I don't want:

1. An editor. Don't pick apart my wording. That's ten steps down the path and  I'm not there yet.

2. A teacher. I can download podcasts, attend classes, and go looking for lessons on my own. I'm asking for feedback on my story, not for convoluted theories on why I fail as a writer. <- Yes, this one has happened.

3. "I like this story and I want to read more." Thank you for reading and I appreciate the positive feedback, but please elaborate.

I think what helps me most is when a reader points out any confusing parts or questions that they need answered.  I specifically remember someone pointing out that I had explained that a character was cruel but I hadn't shown it yet--I hadn't even realized!  I also do like an in-line critique because it allows for specific issues to be highlighted.  

I also think it is extremely important for a critiquer to remember to do two things:  the first is follow the "nib" ratings descriptions--if you give me a one, I expect that the piece needs an incredible amount of work, and if you give me a 5, it's publication-ready--and the second is to remember to tell the writer what IS working--I want to know what to fix, but what, if anything,  stood out to you that would make you interested in coming back?

The idea of feedback is not to only show someone what's wrong with what they're doing or to only tell them things that serve to discourage them and suppress their creative, but to help them learn from their mistakes and become better at the craft.

An effective form of feedback is like a sandwich.... give the writer something they did right that you like.... give them something that needs work... give them something they did right that you like.

It was said by someone, I forget who, but I heard it from a teacher in college... "it is so incredibly easy to point out the faults in people and is equally incredibly difficult to point out the good things in them also."

We all are on different talent levels. Does that mean we all cannot become successful writers one day? No... everyone needs help along the way. 

Great feedback will cultivate any level of talent and help it blossom. This is the type of feedback that I respond to the most and that I look for the most. Know your limits, get to the know the person you're critiquing feedback for and that will help you better understand the message in the story.

-D.R. Hawker

--edited by dhawker7 on 2/9/2015, 7:47 AM--

Well said, D.R. Hawker!

Feedback is like communication - it only means something if the person receiving it understands it and has something to act upon. Otherwise, it is just a one-sided babble.

In college, we had a master class from a prominent musician in the Boston Symphony. A few grad students played, and he was to provide feedback. After they were done, he simply said something to the effect that their playing wasn't right. He offered no details, no how-to's, nothing. He then played the music as he thought it should have been - and it was awesome. However, the next day, the professors all agreed it was the worst master class ever. Why? Because it was two hours of negative feedback with no constructive suggestions. And, as you point out, there were no you-did-this-well remarks.

Maybe the guy was a naturally gifted artist, but most of us were good trying to get better. Now as a writer, I am the same way. I don't mind negative comments. I have learned from all of them. The better reviews, however, give me both the bad and the good.

We are all at different stages of ability as writers - and where we end up is ultimately determined by us - but quality feedback makes the road to get there a little smoother.

I've been reading all of these with fascination. Thanks everyone who's been responding, and keep those reflections on the topic coming!

I loved what Danielle said especially--basically, if I needed a teacher, I would take a class or watch a tutorial. Exactly! What Book Country is for is something different, hence "peer review."

Another question: Let's say you have a review from a writer whose writing you do not admire (on Book Country or elsewhere). What do you do with that feedback?

That's an easy one, Lucy. It has happened to me, not here, on another site. I discount the comments heavily. I still look for useful input, but I take it all with a grain of salt. 

The reviewer was someone whose criticisms of other work I had admired. His own book has the problem that I have with many fantasy pieces, the story built on a shaky foundation. I was expected to take too much on his say-so. To my mind there was a stunning lack of character development. I do not accept fantasy that is essentially fairy tale: poof! That's the way it is. Give me solid motivation and believable reactions.

.

His writing was very nice. It's the plot mechanics that I was not able to buy. Everyone else who reviewed it was very enthusiastic about it. Fantasy, aside from Tolkien and talking cats, is certainly not my thing. Hell! That ain't right! See my last night entry under What are you reading?

I agree with SMRoffey. You can't judge a review by how well the person writes--that's not fair to them. You have to seriously consider the merits of their review of your WIP.

What I do is read the review and try to wheedle out helpful tidbits, like whether they're covering rough areas another reviewer--or reviewers--have mentioned, such as the misgivings on the first chapter of Destiny's Bond, which I've recently revised and need to upload to the site. I also search the review for anything I agree needs work. You'd be amazed at some of the things that pop out at you when a reviewer mentions them. I especially like when a reviewer highlights a stubbornly unworkable sentence or paragraph and suggests how to fix it. For some reason, their rewritten version helps me to reconstruct that spot.

Now, if someone's telling me my story doesn't work at all, or is giving me writing advice to follow, I absolutely do a bit of research on them, to make certain they know what they're talking about. While researching, I ask myself three questions:

1). Does this person usually read my genre?

2). Do they have any WIPs uploaded that I can check out, to see how they write fiction?

3). Has this person written other reviews I can skim, preferably ones where the author's left a comment?

Finding answers to these questions usually help me to decide whether to seriously consider the reviewer's opinion. If he/she doesn't read Fantasy, then how does he/she know my story doesn't work? Was it actually the writing that put him/her off? Or is the story really needing an overhaul, like he/she's suggesting?

I haven't gotten a review quite that harsh here yet, save two from our admirable Grumpy Writing Coach--raising a cup to you, Jay--who's been aiding me in my journey to learn Craft. And another who wanted me to write more like they did, which I disregarded in an instant--no one should try to write like someone else. We each have our own Voice.

So, there. That's my bit of rambling. And my answer to Lucy's new question.

Happy Writing, all!

re: Lucy on what to do with feedback from a member you don't admire

I always thank the reader for taking the time to read my work and their feedback. If the feedback isn't something that's constructive, I will leave it at that. Sniping at a reviewer, getting angry or trying to school them in how to properly review will get you nowhere. It leaves a bad taste in the reviewer's mouth and makes them less likely to review again on the site.

If the feedback I get is harsh, I will walk away for a few days and think about what was said and look over my manuscript. I may not like what was said, but giving it a few days lets me cool down if I'm hurt/angry. Most of the time the words will hit a nerve because, deep down, I know that it was a valid problem.

My advice to newer writers is to grow a thick skin. There is no such thing as 100% popularity. J.K. Rowling, George R. R. Martin, and other popular writers have their fair share of haters.  Lashing out at the writer of a bad review or arguing will get you nowhere. Agents and publishers aren't going to want a loose cannon who loses it over every negative thing said.

P.S. If you want a laugh, check out the author Jamie Ford on Twitter (@JamieFord). When his books end up on High School reading lists he retweets all the kids moaning about how they hate it.

--edited by Danielle Bowers on 2/11/2015, 8:02 PM--

Negative comments force you to think very carefully about your choices. If you end up rejecting the advice, you are better prepared to defend your approach. If your book languishes in the marketplace (which is very likely to happen) you will not be second guessing yourself. If you get to the point that you are completely comfortable with your story, come what may in terms of sales, isn't that a win? If you can explain why your vision is the best way to tell your story, isn't that a wonderful thing?

--edited by Mimi Speike on 2/11/2015, 7:41 PM--

Something important is being missed. How good or bad the advice is doesn't matter. In any case, the comment you get, in reality, means "This is how I'd do it." Useful if the name at the bottom is Stephen King. But it almost never is. And it doesn't matter if the advice makes sense to you. Bad advice makes perfect sense if you're missing the same background knowledge as the one giving the advice. Good advice may be ignored for the same reason, because the one getting the advice hasn't the tools to evaluate—which is why my view is that you get the most accurate advice from the pros, not the "experts." Sure it's their opinion, but at least it works for them.

A critique is always useful, because every place where someone made a comment is a place where the writing failed. Your job, is to write prose so engaging that the reader lives the story. So that comment indicates a point where that didn't happen. How that person suggests fixing it may not address the question of why they were "knocked out of the story." It could be something you forgot to foreshadow, a logic lapse, or just lousy writing because you're missing a bit of specialized knowledge. And that's what you need to think about: What caused the reader to stop and comment? Figure that out and fixing the problem just got a whole lot easier.

The question of this thread wasn't "what's the best type of advice to give someone?" 

it was, "What type of feedback helps you the most?" ... not what type of feedback you think will help the writer the most... that is the exact point. 

Forget about writing for a minute. Think about sports, or when you were in school studying for a test or wanting to ask out that pretty girl you saw at the club the other night... all of these things at some point, will have feedback to the main person involved... in these types of scenarios, what type of feedback would help you the most? 

If you wanted to ask a woman out, would someone else say to you, "this is how I would do it" ... or would they say, "Be yourself, enjoy the moment and smile," positive feedback is not always supposed to be like 'do it this way because that's how professionals do it' ... it should be that we do something that works best for us. The feedback you get along the way is merely a tool, a resource to aid you during the process.

Feedback given to someone regardless of the forum, shouldnt always be negative or 'do it my way if you want to be successful,' ... that's why it's important to get to know the writer. Like someone else said, read other things they've written and read what other reviewers had to say about it. This way you can have a more informed opinion about the writing instead of using a standard cookie-cutter response. Because everyone is different and everyone responds to feedback differently... 

which was the exact point of this discussion in the first place.

--edited by dhawker7 on 2/12/2015, 10:13 AM--

I'll add one more thing...

When you do a peer review, use examples of what you liked and didn't like. A good review will put a spotlight on the strengths and weaknesses within the manuscript. You can stand on a soapbox about your views of showing versus telling, but grabbing a sentence that is telling and rewriting it to show the writer what you're talking about is worth a thousand times more.

Look around at the members of Book Country when you want more reviews. Check out their backgrounds and posted works mesh well with you. Successful writers are busy people, so reach out to them and try to draw them to your manuscripts. A message of "Can you review my book?" may work, but giving a detailed, thoughtful review of their uploads will make them more likely to give you a shot.

Although it is somewhat difficult on this site, I like to keep a dialog going during the critting process. That also gives me a chance to globally change something ahead of the reader so they don't keep finding the same problem.

If I am critting, I like feed back from the author so I can focus on their concerns. Also, if I have misunderstood something, the author can set me straight, so it doesn't affect the rest of my crit, while the author works on fixing the confusing part, or not.

Since each reader brings unique insights into the story, some are good at punctuation others question character motives, but all comments help develop the story, even if I disagree with them.

Lucy,

I like replies that point out specific flaws like grammar, sentence structure and continuity. I also want to know if the character makes sense or sounds unbelievable; does the plot sound believable or far fetched. I also like the kind of responses that Amber Wolfe pointed out in her post. I have been writing for a number of years now so the feed back on my work helps me to get better. Ultimately as the writer, you have to decide what to use to develop the story. The reviews help me to further develop my story. 

I like reviews that tell me when the reader has become confused, or stumbled over a sentence. I like to know if my wording is off anywhere, if the character is believable/likeable etc. I worry about grammar in my final edit so, although helpful, it's not the first thing I seek out in a review. For me I'd love to know if the reader is pulled into the story, if I've engaged their attention, if they'd like to read on and how they feel about the pace and the characters. That would be my perfect review!

One at all would be nice though,

I'd love someone to read the whole thing and then give me a breakdown where things fall apart.  (Or where they totally bought in).

Say it with kindness but don't hold back.  I'd rather hear comments than hear nothing.

-D-

I find people are wildly subjective with the nibs. There is no consistency. I suspect many people who have joined in the past few months didn't bother to study the rubric of 1-5 nibs. It seems so willy-nilly. Even though I disagree with the recent feedback I've gotten (and there isn't much to go on), the narrative critique and use of quoted sections are overall the most helpful and useful. I think people are predisposed to liking certain genres and so that influences their choice of 1-5. And they may like certain topics, writers, friends they've cultivated, and THAT influences where they put a review on the nib rubric. 

Maybe passing a tutorial on the rubric should be a requirement along with posting a review before a writer can put up his or her work for peer review.