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I've always had a difficult time writing in the 3rd person. In 1st person I can explore a character's thoughts and feelings clearly and easily, but in 3rd person I struggle with abiding by the "rules"--and with breaking them when necessary. As a result, I end up with a lot of action happening and not as much real depth and development as I'd like.
I know that part of my issue is accepting that it's OK to bend the rules a bit., but does anyone have any suggestions on how to get over this and express inner thoughts and emotions more fluidly when writing in the 3rd person? What do you all do? Or am I the only one who has this problem? LOL!
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Joined: 3/3/2011
Posts: 68
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When I need to show character thoughts, I tend to write a line with underline/italics to actually convey that thought, a momentary break to first person -- and I haven't had anyone complain about it. If you do it too often, people may wonder why you're using 3rd instead of 1st, but I think it all comes down to execution.
As to feelings, I think the smart thing is to try to signal those feelings through action, (assuming the 'show don't tell' rule). When you want to show a character is angry,
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Thanks, Michael. I actually use those tactics as well  I guess my question is a tough one to explain. It's more that I can't get across more overall thoughts and feelings in a way that feels natural to me. When they pertain to something that happens specifically, the two ways you suggested are great. Maybe I'm just being paranoid though and am doing it just fine haha Someone will have to read my chapter and let me know! 
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Joined: 3/7/2011
Posts: 10
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I try to convey thoughts through action and inflection. I'm sometimes irritated by the italics-as-thought thing, possibly because I read so many young adult and juvenile books when I was a kid where there were telepathic kids who spoke to one another constantly in italics, providing amazing 'as you know bob' style info dumps. I think about how my passive-aggressive mum would have shown her feelings, watch people interacting with one another, and try to play off that.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412
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Marilyn, okay, thats a reason to read R.R., to learn that trick!
I dislike putting thoughts in italics. I do it as dialogue, just the caveat of, thought to himself. , or something similar as an identifier. Also, I describe facial expressions. Probably a bit too much, actually.
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Joined: 3/17/2011
Posts: 18
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The PoV, third person limited can be just as close as First person PoV. If you are in the third person limited, it should be obvious that a inner though is by the PoV. But when you have lots of other characters around, it is not uncommon to use italic or identifiers so as not to confuse the readers. Some like, some don't.
The thing is, your editor will have a house style they go by and will let you know what they prefer.
Third person distant is as it name applies, it is distant and more than likely you need identifiers to show the inner thoughts/dialogue comes from a particular PoV and not a narrator.
Third person Omniscient is the all knowing narrator and he/she can show inner thoughts of any single character, at any time, but it generally requires some form of identifier.
So long as your PoV is consistent, I don't think you would have a problem so long as you keep it clear who is doing the thinking that the reader is reading. If that makes sense...
Again, an editor is going to tell you what the house style is and you go from there.
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Joined: 3/7/2011
Posts: 38
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I prefer the 3rd person limited, and use different characters, depending on which one's inner thoughts and feelings would be most beneficial to my readers at that point in the story.
I use either italics or as a dialogue with a he/she thought tag.
I have always found writing in 1st person difficult.
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Joined: 3/11/2011
Posts: 29
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How do I express emotions/thoughts in 3rd person POV? Badly. Okay, so it's something I'm working on. However, this is one of those places where remembering "show don't tell" is helpful to me. I try to give my characters business that expresses their moods (biting at fingernails, repetitive motions, twirling hair). I basically try to fill the "air" with those moods.
Thoughts, I express in italics if I feel they're essential to the moment and must be kept out of dialogue.
While I prefer writing in 1st person (I can get more visceral with my narration), I still flirt with the 3rd Omniscient because somethings just call for that all-knowing voice. Emotional voyeurism can be very effective.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412
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http://www.erfworld.com/2011/03/book-2-%e2%80%93-text-updates-045/
this is an AWESOME job doing just that, if you ask me.
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 1
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James Wood talks about point of view in his book How Fiction Works, and reading that part might give you an a-ha moment... perhaps you're doing it the right way already? I know it is easy to get bogged down. He talks about free indirect style, where the 3rd person narrator inhabits the character and subtly switches the voice depending on the character. I imagine writing 1st vs 3rd person can be tricky either way, depending on what you're used to. Plowing through and going back to revise sometimes helps me.
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Thanks for the book recommendation, Lauren! That's one I haven't read yet so I'll definitely check it out
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I guess I must be missing something. Why is there more, or less of a problem expressing thoughts in third? If it’s a direct thought, you can use italics to show it’s a thought, as against musing aloud. If it’s an indirect thought, such as an attitude you show it in the prose.
An example of both, combined (with italics used for emphasis elsewhere), that worked for me is below. I’ve tried to how the italics with HTML though I don’t know which, if any, HTML code is acceptable to this site's software, so if strange brackets are visible, that's why, and the italics are between the pair.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
He glanced at the sky, ablaze with October stars. Apparently, the moon had crossed nearly a quarter of the sky and set without his noticing. There was no comfort to be found in the stars.
I should just say the hell with it and turn in. I But crawling into the sleeping bag would be a waste of time. Sleep wasn’t going to come for hours this night, and the cold was an annoyance not a problem. She was the problem.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
As for other people's thoughts it's the same in first and third, people "look as though..." they stiffen, their nostrils flair, etc.
I mean no offense with this, but are you sure that when you're talking about giving thoughts in first person being easier are you certain you don't mean that the narrator is telling the reader the character had a thought, rather then presenting it as it occurs, in context?
My personal view is that first person is not simply license to have the narrator on stage as an active character.
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Joined: 5/8/2011
Posts: 9
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I have seen italics used, but I have also seen quotations used and not just when the character is thinking aloud. I suppose, from a publishing standpoint, either is acceptable, though I prefer the italics as a reader. And, as has already been pointed out, you don't want to overdo it.
And Jay, I am not trying to be mean or anything, but you seriously need to take some time and study the difference between then and than. You keep putting then where than should be.
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Joined: 3/11/2011
Posts: 29
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Jay, I think the question is more of how do you do this effectively? There are many times in a first person narrative when the narrator knows way too much. (I don't want to step on any toes, but this is especially true in the Twilight saga.) In a universe where there aren't telepaths, a narrator can't always know exactly what a look means or what a companion is thinking. Authors who give that much to the reader through the narrator TELLING them outright are cheating (in my ever so humble opinion). So, you have to show emotions/thoughts in the business you give a character, the body language. If it's your narrator, sure you can italicize thoughts and have an inner dialogue.
Third person may seem easier as you can be omniscient, but that too is tricky. If you've got three people in a scene and you're trying to give insight into all of their thoughts, even prose can get quickly cluttered.
And Jay, what do you mean by your last statement? "First person is not simply license to have the narrator on stage as an active character"? Could you elaborate?
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• Jay, I think the question is more of how do you do this effectively? There are many times in a first person narrative when the narrator knows way too much.
The narrator ALWAYS knows too much. It has nothing to do with the POV used. It has to do with the author talking to the reader about the scene, instead of presenting the scene as it happens.
• In a universe where there aren't telepaths, a narrator can't always know exactly what a look means or what a companion is thinking.
We do in life. And that “look” comes with body-language, tone of voice, knowledge of the person speaking’s past interaction, etc. Somehow, we get through life using it.
Agreed, we can never truly know what someone else is thinking, in a book or in life. But if we know everything we would know were we there on the scene we can guess as well as in life—certainly as well as the character. Bear in mind that I have nothing against first-person. Foreign Embassy is written in it. I tried converting it to third but gave up because I felt it lost impact.
But that aside, some can pull an external POV off, yes, but for “oh my God, what do we do now?” immediacy, being in the character’s POV rather than the author’s, wins, because without uncertainty it’s the history of a fictional character.
Sometimes exposition unavoidable, and it’s useful for connecting scenes to get over the boring bits, but reciting the entire story? Seems too much like the difference between visiting the theater so see the play, as against hearing someone tell about it. I know which I’d choose.
• Jay, I think the question is more of how do you do this effectively?
I don’t disagree, I’m just saying that in first or third the answer it's the same. My personal favorite is to be in the character’s head using their senses, rather than those of the storyteller. It’s presenting the character’s interpretation of what’s observed, filtered through their personality, their needs, and their political agenda. In other words, their POV not the author’s.
Anthony Burgess put it well when he said, “A character, to be acceptable as more than a chess piece, has to be ignorant of the future, unsure about the past, and not at all sure of what he is supposed to be doing.”
• And Jay, what do you mean by your last statement? "First person is not simply license to have the narrator on stage as an active character"? Could you elaborate?
Sure. Most new authors write their story as they would speak it, with little info-dump asides and editorial comment. If you’re personally telling a story to a friend that’s how you do it. But on the page it reads as an info-dump, so to try to spice it up many people change the personal pronouns from s/he to “I” hoping to legitimize the backstory. But telling is telling.
First and third each have their strengths and weaknesses, but disguising the author’s voice isn’t one of them, because the "first person" who is telling the story and the one experiencing it can’t be on stage together.
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Joined: 4/29/2011
Posts: 7
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I stumbled upon this little trick recently when I was playing with a story idea ... I write the scene in the first person narrative repeatedly for all characters in the scene until their thoughts/actions/reactions are all represented. Once I remove filter words and tweak the scene I find that the plot actually progresses much more smoothly and my characters are a lot more tangible. I know it sounds like a lot of work, but it made such a difference to what I was writing and now I'm applying it to everything!
('filter words' is a concept that is new to me, explained really well in this article: http://writeitsideways.com/are-these-filter-words-weakening-your-fiction/)
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That's a really interesting idea, Stef! I can see how getting into each of their heads separately would help you figure out which parts are most important to convey in third person. Thank you for the suggestion!
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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THat is a really interesting technique. I may have to try it out...
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Joined: 2/9/2012
Posts: 427
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This one is a biggy. Relaying character thoughts in a third person POV can be really tough. POV is a powerful tool for character depth, and I honestly think that it is inevitable that some of the emotional intensity of the prose is lost if a ms is written in the third person rather than the first.
I think it also has its advantages, though. For example, through a third person POV you can convey character feelings and attitudes that the character is not necessarily aware of. Sometimes first-person narratives tend to sound self-absorbed!
Anyways, I feel like I went a little bit off topic.
What does everybody else think?
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Joined: 6/14/2012
Posts: 194
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I write mostly in third person, usually in "deep interior" third person, where--for me, anyway--it's easy to show interior emotions and thoughts without going to the "stream of consciousness" flow of first person. The POV for a given scene "has" the interior--and experiences other people as we do, from outside. If for some reason I need another character's inside view (and it's counter to what the character is saying) then I write another scene showing that, with a clear POV break between them. (However: there are readers who do not mind head-hopping.)
In conversations, it frequently happens that what someone says audibly is accompanied by an internal dialogue that may be different. For instance, when someone finally returns a borrowed $10 two weeks late, a character may say "Thank you," but be thinking "And about damn time, too." Or a less impatient or more grateful character might be thinking "Oh, good! Now I can go out for ice cream with friends after my late class." A character may give good advice to another but be thinking "Not that she'll listen; she never does." These thoughts--which enrich characterization and the situation both--can be inserted "in the flow" of the conversation without either italics or quotation marks (both of which "stick out") and if written as the fragments of thought, will be understood by readers easily.
I don't let characters do extended navel-gazing...too much musing/thinking at a time is static for readers. But they have moments, and they think while doing other things, expressing their needs, their wishes, their feelings. If you're deep in a character, you know what they feel, see, hear, smell, taste, what they think, what their mood is and when it changes. "....she could feel tears stinging her eyes..." "Anger roared through him like the winter wind lashing the forest." "The guilt he had always felt at the death of any of his soldiers smote him: who was he that others should die because of him? Because he was a king?..."
If you've stayed deep in POV, readers will take this as the thoughts and feelings of the character.
...........................
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Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 1
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I am new to writing and I would like to write a book about my life, however, I am joining another individual so that it is two stories relating to the same topic. How do I start writing where all my words arent, I this and I that...Should I just mention the name rather than I?
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Joined: 6/7/2013
Posts: 1356
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Hi @Fearless Females--glad to see you here on the site. Curious to see the responses to your question you posted, too.
Let me know if you need anything, and check out our FAQ, our video tutorials, and this introductory blog post if you have a minute. They are useful resources for new Book Country members.
Welcome!
Lucy Silag
Book Country Community and Engagement Manager
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Fearless Females wrote:I am new to writing and I would like to write a book about my life, however, I am joining another individual so that it is two stories relating to the same topic. How do I start writing where all my words arent, I this and I that...Should I just mention the name rather than I?
You didn’t mention if you’re doing
it as a hand-me-down for the family, a personal memento, of hoped to sell it.
If selling it is your goal, it’s unlikely you’ll find a publisher for it
because, in general, if you don’t have a name people recognize on sight, it
needs both to be something extraordinary, and written professionally. Take a
look for memoirs in your local bookstore to get a feel for what’s selling
today.
One problem you face is that except in a diary format, our schooling didn’t
prepare us for the task of organizing and writing work for the market. To do
that you need to know a bit more about what readers respond to, both positively
and negatively. And for that, your local free library’s writing section can be
a big help. The Internet, too, can be a big help. Do a Google search on writing
a memoir.
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There is such a thing as third person personal. My stories are written in third person, but they are written from the perspective of a single main character. So, events and other characters are view in conjunction to the way she sees them.
For example. The witchdoctor stared her down from the top of his nose. She wondered why. Did he have a problem with her? What was his deal anyway? Come to think of it, he's had that look of disgust on his face all night. Maybe it wasn't her. Seeing that he wasn't changing his gaze, Sloane looked around the room to find someone else worthy of her time. --edited by MCKIE on 9/6/2013, 9:22 PM--
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• The witchdoctor stared her
down from the top of his nose. She wondered why. Did he have a problem with
her? What was his deal anyway? Come to think of it, he's had that look of
disgust on his face all night. Maybe it wasn't her. Seeing that he wasn't changing
his gaze, Sloane looked around the room to find someone else worthy of
her time.
While you’re, in part, giving the person’s thoughts, you’ve stopped the action
dead to give what can be said in far fewer words for more impact. The witch doctor
looks at her. She decides she doesn’t like him and turns away. Sixty-six words
to say that, in prosaic terms. Why not place the reader in her POV:
“Based on the look witch doctor was giving her he had a stick up his ass, so
she turned and searched the room for someone who might actually be worthy of
her time.”
Half the words, but it says the same thing. Do I, as a reader care that he’s
been in a bad mood all night? No. Do I wonder why? No. Nor does she, because she doesn’t speculate
or ask. And if she’s not really interested, why would the reader be? So while what
was presented might be informative, it’s not entertaining, and people come to
us to be entertained. And while the words you used do give her general attitude, they’re not her actual
thoughts. No one thinks, “Did he have a problem with her? What was his deal anyway?”
The tense is wrong for her thoughts. And
while people might say, “Come to think of it,” in speech, they don’t
think it. Nor is, “She wondered why,” a thought. It’s an observation by the
author, who is neither in the story nor on the scene, so it doesn't belong in the italicized section.
Sorry for cutting it apart, but you did post it, and there were some problems
with POV.
For a great article on improving presentation of POV check this:
http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/art/scene.php
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Joined: 6/14/2012
Posts: 194
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I finally thought of a simpler way to say what I meant (maybe.)
In third person you can express the thoughts and feelings of the point-of-view character, because--though written in third person--the writer is inside that POV character. You can go as deep as you want with that character.
What you can't do is express the thoughts and feelings of another character without changing POV from Character 1 to Character 2. You can show Character 2's behavior, and Character 1's surmises about Character 2's motivation, history, intention...but you express Character 2's thoughts directly without changing POV to Character 2.
Omniscient gives you the power to get inside all characters' heads, but distances the reader (as if the reader is "above" the story, peeking into everything, and makes it harder for a writer to immerse the reader in one character at a time.
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