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Good fight scenes in literature
Alexander Hollins
Posted: Monday, April 4, 2011 7:39 PM
Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412


So, a lot of posts already exist for people to list good use of dialouge, good sex scenes, ect.  A lot of people have mentioned that they have no experience with actual fights, so I thought it might be useful to note things we've read that had good fight scenes of various types.

For good hand to hand combat, and descriptions of the mental processes behind combat, I would suggest the Time Scout novels, by Robert Aspirin and Linda Evans.

For firefights, Phule's company, same author (robert aspirin)

For sword combat, the collected works of Raymond Feist.  In particular, the Serpentwar saga, that starts with Shadow of a Dark Queen, has excellent depictions of squad combat with sword and shield, and general warfare.

Space combat.  Bio of a space tyrant, Piers Anthony.

Good depictions both of hand to hand combat, and projectile ship to ship combat, in space, with modern limitations on physics.


Anyone have some good ones?

Quinn
Posted: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 6:21 PM
Joined: 3/15/2011
Posts: 13


Steven Gould's Jumper (and the sequel, Reflex) has some really well-written fight scenes, especially given the complicated mechanics of the main character's teleportation. It's a good example of how to combine a fantastic conceit with flesh-and-blood physics by thinking things out very carefully.

I also really enjoyed the magical fights in the Harry Potter books, particularly later in the series. They're always varied and well-paced, and easy to picture in your head.
EMA Chambers
Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2011 8:44 PM
Joined: 4/28/2011
Posts: 2


It may sound weird, but one resource I use to both plan out and fill in details for fight scenes is Stage Combat folks. It's one thing to read a good fight and take notes from it, but sometimes if you know you want certain things but aren't sure how to write them, choreographers and actor combatants can talk -- and usually walk -- you through ideas. SAFD is the biggest organization of fight community folks nationally, and there are a couple locals that I rely on, too.
RebeccaStevenson
Posted: Friday, April 29, 2011 1:40 PM
Joined: 4/6/2011
Posts: 29


I thought the fights in Abercrombie's "First Law" Trilogy were really well-done. I felt like I ought to be taking notes.

Zelazny (if you can get over the fencing vocabulary) and Brust are also good resources.
Samuel Tyree
Posted: Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:08 AM
Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 4


With my background, cop, bouncer, bounty hunter, martial arts, etc, writing fight scenes is not that hard. I just posted the first chapter of my book Max Cole: Dark Genesis. You can see for yourself if I got it right or not. The best visual fight scenes from movies that I like, and which I think are better than written ones, are the ones in Total Recall and The Bourne Identity. The best firearms book I've read is Larry Carreria's "Monster Hunting International" series. Larry is a firearms combat instructor in his day job.

However, if you never been in a fight, or at least trained to fight, then it's sort of like a virgin writing sex scenes. Possible, but they will never know if they are leaving something out, even if they've watched dozens of pornos or read a lot of erotica. They say write about what you know, which to me means you at least need to take some martial arts training. Look for a Krav Maga class near you and/or an SCA group. You'll learn about fighting and battles by experiencing them and it will add to your writing repetoire. If you want to know what its like to shoot a gun, go to a range and learn how. Airsoft can help you fight a few firefights without getting killed in real life.

Pax,
Sam





Philip Tucker
Posted: Thursday, May 5, 2011 9:08 PM
Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 77


My favorite depictions of hand-to-hand fights occur in the works of Robert B. Parker (a boxer in RL) and of Lee Child. Child's Jack Reacher can really fight, not least because he will fight to the death - even his own. Parker's Spenser is a boxer, and trains in every book about him. I like his emphasis on training and endurance.
Alexander Hollins
Posted: Friday, May 6, 2011 10:25 PM
Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412


Sam, very very true. I think one of the biggest things that turns me off on a fight scene is a fight that lasts for several minutes. Most fist / knife fights last 60 seconds, tops. The written scene should reflect that.
Toni Wyatt
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 9:12 PM
Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52


Because the novel I'm currently working on is Native American, I highly recommend, 'Prairie' by Greg Tobin. He does an excellent job of describing weapons, techniques, and dress for a few different Native American tribes of the midwest. Even though I deal with the Natchez, Choctaw, and Chickasaw tribes along the southern Mississippi, his novel helped me with the emotions and the preparations.
AJR Sottil
Posted: Monday, May 9, 2011 2:08 AM
Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 9


Hi Toni! I am very interested in Native Americans. I would recommend as reading literature in the Native American field "Trail of Tears by John Ehle and James Mooney's History, Myths, and Sacred Formulas of the Cherokees.
Granted, both are about the Cherokee, but they are extremely interesting.

As to the discussion, I use for swordfighting scenes the Norse Sagas, as they are generally very concise and without embellishments.

I don't really deal with firefights myself.
Toni Wyatt
Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 1:34 PM
Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52


Thanks, AJR! I will check it out. Some of the best information I've gotten for my purposes was from 'History of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Natchez Indians' by Horatio Bardwell Cushman. There are some really good resources out there. The best ones are usually the older ones.
RebeccaStevenson
Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 1:43 PM
Joined: 4/6/2011
Posts: 29


Doug Hulick's "Among Thieves" has pretty good sword fights (and notes that getting cut with a sword really *hurts*).

On the SF side, there's an out-of-print series called Exordium that has some nice ship to ship battles that nod in the direction of relativity.
Blakely Chorpenning
Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 2:20 PM
Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 26


Ema, that's a great idea to use stage combat people. I usually hunt down friends with the type of experience I need and run my thoughts by them. I also use this method concerning dimensional space if I have a character much taller than myself. My friends seem to love the crazy questions, so it's a fair trade.
Before I write a fight scene, however, I do think about the feel I want it to have. So I might go through books or, most often, movies and choose one with a similar feel to what I want to capture. Then I just try to figure out the elements that give it that feel. And, on occasion, I've used a song to instead, which worked surprisingly better than I expected.
Fight scenes are probably one of my weaknesses as a writer. I think I fall into the trap of over-explaining them to the point of making them too mechanical/technical. Working on it.
Robert C Roman
Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:02 PM
Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376


For modern or sci fi hand-to-hand and gun combat, both personal (Ghost) and en masse on a battlefield (Legacy of the Aldenata / Council Wars), John Ringo is fairly good.

For fleet or ship-to-ship combat, David Weber does both space (Honor Harrington) and 'wet' (Off Armageddon Reef) navies, and Jack Campbell does some good space navy stuff in his Lost Fleet series.

One thing that I've experienced once or twice in fistfights (never been in a gunfight, thank god) is the altered perception of time. I've heard and read it happens in *any* kind of combat. I mention that riffing on Alexander's comment about most fights taking less than 60 seconds. Most one on one fights *are* over in sixty seconds, although subsequent beatings can last a lot longer than that (I've been on both the dispensing and receiving end of those). However, the fight can feel subjectively like it took forever or like it was over in an eyeblink.

I've actually played with that in XLI and the sequels, where bioenhancement slows the perception of time for the MC, so he's seeing everything in 'bullet time', even though he's reacting normally. I've had mixed comments on that, but the first one actually was the most amusing. A friend and avid reader who beta read it said "The fight scenes reminded me of The Matrix." Before I could get happy he followed that with "I hated The Matrix"
Philip Tucker
Posted: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:08 AM
Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 77


I've added a combat/chase scene to Small Bore. It's Chapter 18. It's only about 1400 words. If you criticize it, I'll be grateful.
Alexander Hollins
Posted: Monday, January 16, 2012 11:28 AM
Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412


Reviving a dead thread here, but Robert, ABSO FRICKEN LUTELY. I find more people will know what you're talking about if you liken it to a car wreck!  Not as many people have been in a real fist fight as opposed to a car wreck, apparently.

Elizabeth Moon
Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 1:50 AM
Joined: 6/14/2012
Posts: 194


Arturo Perez-Riverte's  Alatriste novels (Captain Alatriste, Purity of Blood, The Sun Over Breda, etc.) are excellent in the fight scenes (as is his The Fencing Master for formal fencing, including a fatal bout--set later in history than the Alatriste novels)  for sword work of different kinds, as well as period combat from fist-fights to battles in the Spanish wars of Counter-Reformation. 

 

One of the things about any fight with blades (from knife to heavier blades) is that you really need to be an expert to follow them--the lighter ones (knives, foils, epees, rapiers) move too fast for the non-player to follow, and descriptions of exactly who did what slow the action for readers.  Thrust, parry, slash, riposte is about as much as you can say without slowing things down.   Battleaxes, maces, and heavier swords move only slightly more slowly, and detailing blow by blow makes the fight seem slow.  So the best writers don't do it except when a fighter is describing to someone else how he killed the other guy or at least wounded him until he quit.

 

For naval battles in the age of sail:  C.S. Forester's Hornblower books (historically among the best) and Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin books.   For much older ones, read Thucydides.  Not fiction, but interesting history. 

 

Consider memoirs, starting with Herodotus and Thucydides for over view--the historian's version--and then Xenophon's Anabasis (some English translations give the title as The Persian Expedition.)  for the personal account.  Caesar's Gallic Wars, of course.  In more recent times, many commanders and individual soldiers have written their memoirs which give illuminating glances into actual combat conditions and what it was like to be there.   Some are better writers than others, but what a fiction writer gets from these accounts is not how to write it, but what the reality was like.  William Manchester's Goodbye Darkness:  a Memoir of the Pacific War, on the other hand, is a master writer's memoir of the island campaign by a man who was there, in combat. 

 


Elizabeth Moon
Posted: Thursday, July 31, 2014 1:11 AM
Joined: 6/14/2012
Posts: 194


I'll mention, since it hasn't been mentioned yet, that a number of women writers are experienced with fencing, martial arts, and--among women veterans--actual military engagements, in both training and combat.  I learned to fight as a child from my mother (who had grown up in a neighborhood of all boys), and while a girl fighting (especially effectively) was highly disapproved of, it came in handy with schoolyard and other bullies.  (And I'm now a perfectly safe, harmless, sweet little old lady whose swords are purely for decorative or recreational use, so quit that sidling toward the door.)  

 

Anyway, you can find women writing fantasy and science fiction who write excellent fight scenes, true to both the moves and the sensations.    As with male writers, there are also some who don't, who base their research on TV and movie fight scenes rather than the real thing, but increasingly, women are writing good fight and combat scenes.   In part this is because more women are training or have trained in some form of fighting, and others are well-read in military history (and thus constructing believable battle scenes with feasible tactics.)  Tanya Huff's Valor books about Torin Kerr are excellent; Lee & Miller's Liaden Universe stories have good fight scenes, Glenda Larke's The Lascar's Dagger, C.J. Cherryh's works (too many to pick from; I've recently been re-reading the Foreigner series)...and naturally, near midnight and with a foggy brain, I'm losing track of others that I know I'll think of two days from now.  And my own don't totally suck.  



jmcclintock10
Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 10:22 AM
Joined: 4/22/2015
Posts: 1


Although Sam's post is from 2011, its wisdom is timeless. I write para-military thrillers with many hand-to-hand scenes and firefights. His suggestion for Krav Maga training for those who have never fought is excellent--KM is hard-hitting basic fighting skills. He mentioned the Jason Bourne series as great fights, and I agree. The style Bourne uses is Kali, which is what I am training in now. It's a weapons-based style, and excellent for someone new to fighting. They would learn the basics of weapons and empty hand fighting at the same time. And even though I've trained in martial arts for over 40 years spanning several styles, I still go to my fellow students or current or former instructors to choreograph particularly demanding fight scenes. I've found they are more than happy to share in the process of creating a story.

 


Lucy Silag - Book Country Director
Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 10:54 AM
Joined: 6/7/2013
Posts: 1356


@Jmclintock--I've been hearing so much about Krav Maga lately! Funny coincidence--or maybe it is starting to be a popular sport/class?

 

One of our most popular posts on the Book Country blog is this one from author Anthony Ryan about how to write an effective battle scene. Some good takeaways for fight scenes as well!

 

 


 

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