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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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I agree that cliches aren't bad, but it does have a lot to do with execution. I have come across many things that were great twists on the "classics." I'm using the trope of the hero's quest with nobility figures, yet I have scored pretty high on the originality/execution scale according to my beta readers.
What cliches that you usually dislike have you found representations of that you enjoy?
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Joined: 2/9/2012
Posts: 427
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I really liked your comment, Leanna, because I think that some of the best genre fiction is a new take on an old topic/concept. If a book deviates from the formula too much, why would the fans of that respective genre want to read it?!!
In terms of clichés that can go right or wrong, the vulnerable/strong heroine is a big one for me. Nalo Hopkinson’s Brown Girl in the Ring is an example of this done well, because the narrative traces the coming-of-consciousness of the heroine. The protagonist gets stronger and gains confidence as the narrative progresses - it is a natural process of getting over her fears. On the other hand, the heroine of Jeaniene Frost’s Night Huntress series grates on my nerves sometimes, even though she’s also going through a similar transformation. It is a fine balance between vulnerability and affected naïveté. Surely, contradictory characteristics can reside in the same person; people are not just black and white. I think the question is, does a particular concoction of strength and weakness engender sympathy in the reader...or is it more like exasperation? J
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LeeAnn, I'm Kentucky born and bred, and I'm totally in favor of your dwarves! They sound awesome. What did you end up with?
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Joined: 7/25/2012
Posts: 25
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Even the most crusty of cliches can entertain in the hands of a creative writer. Since entertainment is king, it depends how they're handled.
Hero falls in love with the princess. Wholly crap, they burned her at the stake!
Who would have thought the blond haired, blue eyed stable boy might have had a thing for... the horses.
Or the senile king was faking it.
Or the Legendary Sword of Myth never existed.
Or the Dark Lord of Evil has a soft spot for kittens.
The result might be shocking or borderline farcical, but it'll get a reaction because... cliches make people expect an outcome and irony awaits.
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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Wow, this thread hasn't gotten any activity for a while.
@MariAdkins: I didn't manage to squeeze in moonshine because it was developed back when whisky was being taxed quite heavily. Since my dwarves live in a city state, I currently don't have any outside forces that have forced them to develop it. I'm still working on my introduction of them though. I feel it's a bit thin, but I am working with a word count limit. They still drink a lot of booze, though.
@hagenpiper: The stable boy has a thing for the horses? Don't leave him with the centaurs, or do. It depends on if you like your pack animals being violated.
Come on. I know there are more people out there who don't like cliches.
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Joined: 7/25/2012
Posts: 25
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Because we're writing within a genre, perhaps one should think of cliches as on a continuum between elements of fantasy and that which is trite.
Stray too far from the familiar and you leave the genre, adhere too closely and risk a groaning readership.
So as I said in my previous post, take that which is old and make it new. It's not easy, but fantasy readers love it when you do.
That was not meant as a couplet. I should revise it, but I'm not going to. (Doh! Rhymed again...)
Anyway, don't take me too seriously. I don't.
But I'll say this much, I cringe when anything crawls, skitters or tingles up a spine. Sick of spines... That zap you get in your fingers and toes when you almost fall backward down the stairs, that I can appreciate. But crawling spines... seriously. Or hairs standing on necks. Yawn...
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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I agree about the spine thing. Only use it when my characters get especially creeped out, usually in a comedic scene. I use that intense nauseous feeling when something happens like almost dying. You know, the one that can almost cripple you while you feel like you're going to vomit.
The hairs standing on necks is an actual biological response, but I agree, it is over used.
It's okay, I don't mind not taking you seriously. I don't take myself seriously either. I can't. My characters wouldn't like it. They would rebel and not do what I wanted.
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Joined: 5/28/2012
Posts: 43
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Things I particularly hate in fantasy:
(1) Dream sequences that have meaning (especially ones that drive the plot).
(2) Prophecies, especially in the form of rhyming poems.
(3) One-dimensional villains who are evil for the sake of being evil. They want to be in control (or something) and they do everything from dark magic to rape to human sacrifice to amassing armies of evil creatures. But they have no discernible reason for existence other than providing a foil for the heroes. (I agree that having a soft spot for kittens isn't an adequate or realistic redeeming quality...)
(4) The hero's journey. It's been done before. I'm tired of it. I am beginning to hate farmboys who are actually the long-lost sons of kings.
(5) Dragons that have all but disappeared but are now making a comeback. (And this includes stories from writers I normally like, including Robin Hobb and George R.R. Martin.)
(6) Fantasy religions that exist solely because the author thought their characters ought to have a religion. These are usually paper-thin copies of Christianity or Islam. (If you are going to do a variation on an existing religion, read a lot of Guy Gavriel Kay. I think he gets it right.) Or powerful churches that restrict the heroes' activities or that are corrupted by evil.
(7) Finding out that the answer to all of the heroes' problems exists in some ancient book.
( Infodumps every time we see a new town, especially if a character has been there a dozen times before. It's like if I wrote about walking out my front door in the morning and said: "I buried my pet rat under that bush, and my dog pees in this spot every day, and I tripped here once."
(9) Detailed descriptions of the activities of tradesmen. Sure, your character can be a carpenter or a scribe. But if we have to read EVERY detail, every time someone goes to work, and it doesn't advance the plot, well, it gets boring. Fast.
(10) Fireballs or lightning coming out of fingers, Emperor Palpatine-style.
(11) Nomadic desert tribes who require their women to cover their heads and faces. Unless they are actual Bedouins like in Howard Andrew Jones's The Desert of Souls.
I'm sure I could keep going for awhile. But I'll stop here.
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Joined: 2/9/2012
Posts: 427
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Let's give this discussion another whirl. New-ish members, what are your least favorite fantasy cliches?
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